Replies: 9 comments 25 replies
-
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Thanks @danirabbit |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
If elementary OS is designed for hardcore Linux nerds only, then I understand why it would follow whatever "pantheon" says to do. But the tag line says "The thoughtful, capable, and ethical replacement for Windows and macOS." Could I replace Windows or Mac OS on an older relative's machine and have them be familiar with how it works? We should let users work how they are used to working, not make them learn the way Linux designers have decided the new way is. If we go out into the world and count the minimize buttons; they exist on all the Windows (73.35% of market) and all the Macs (15.45% of market) on Chrome (2.25% of market) and some of the Linux options that are out there (let's say half of 4.48, so 2.24%)... so that puts us at more than 90% of desktops have the concept of minimizing an app. At least build it in there as an option so it can be a replacement for Windows and Mac. Otherwise, it just feels broken to many users who are coming to this as new users. We can be flexible and welcoming, or rigid and users will go look for other options. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@ud-ux-thomas being a drop-in replacement for Windows or macOS is not a design goal. The tagline is merely meant to explain what kind of product category elementary OS is without using the unfamiliar word "operating system". There are other operating systems that have that design goal of being 1:1 imitations of other desktop paradigms. We have always done things differently from traditional operating systems. So if you're looking for a traditional operating system, this product is not a good fit for you With respect to the elderly specifically, the multitasking models on Windows and macOS and specifically minimize are difficult concepts that they struggle with. I've personally seen elderly folks find more success with modern paradigms like those found on iPadOS and android |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Obviously, there is no Linux that is a "direct replacement" for the mainstream OSes, that is silly. Forgive me for misunderstanding what "...replacement for Windows and Mac OS" meant. It sounds like you're leaning on the familiarity of those OS'es to make people feel comfortable with the idea of using elementary OS. You should update it to say "Yet Another Pantheon Desktop" or something less misleading. I was kinda liking much of what elementary was doing and was hoping it could be flexible. Not a hill I want to die on though, when there are so many other options out there. I am not currently using it on any of my daily drivers, I've just been testing it. I am not recommending it to anyone, so we're good there. With respect to the elderly specifically, what I've seen and what you've seen is anecdotal. But there have been a lot of interesting conversations in the Linux world regarding people unhappy about not allowing users to minimize apps anymore. Obviously lots of people care about this feature. It's how some have been working for years. Now someone has thought of this new thing: "you may only use workspaces, no minimizing." I've been helping people switch to Linux in place of Windows for years, and you would be very surprised to find out how many people "minimize this email thing, and while that updates, go do that other thing". If no one is using the concept of "minimizing apps", then it is amazing that Mac and Windows keep including it. Actually, I was just helping someone on their Android tablet and I was surprised to see minimize buttons... they were minimizing windows between tasks as well. So I think it is just this weird design phase that is taking hold in the Linux world... and it's leaving plenty of people behind. I'm out. I've already put more time into this than it is worth and your mind is made up anyway. You can decide to be flexible and allow more users work they way they want to work, or you can tell them that "this product is not a good fit for them". |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
I mean you also click on the app you want to see and it appears. It is functionally the same as minimizing one to get it out of the way to access the one below |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
This is a definite deal breaker for me as well. There is no reason minimizing windows from the dock interferes with workspace-centric method. I have been using workspaces and minimizing windows simultaneously for ten years. I will have to install plank on eOS 8 I guess. EDIT: Ok after using the new dock I don't miss minimize at all and am very impressed with how this dock handles multiple windows of the same application. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
sad news, for this I will stick with os 7 |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
The oldest person I’ve set up with elementary OS is the 94 year old Aunt of a close friend of mine. This little old lady considers her computer, her best friend. I’m here to say that elementary OS is part of that equation, and have also mentioned that in a Reddit thread that didn’t get a response. I’ve installed elementary OS on the computers and laptops of probably over a dozen people so far, since I started using it during it’s second release. None of these users were able to vote in a feature poll. Please give us back this option in the Tweaks app. It will be a popular option to "Tweak" back on, and you can continue along with your official Work-spaces vision, which even I have no idea how to use, or why I would want to use that feature. The best features are the intuitive ones that are easy to find by accident. Like the second click to an app on the dock to minimize. Lol… someday you’ll be old like some of us too! Old people get cranky when you take something usefull away from them. Also, I just helped my 89 year old neighbor two doors down source an inexpensive used little Dell optiplex, and guided him through a new 27” HP monitor purchase. I installed the Cinnamon spin of Ubuntu on that system for him and delivered it yesterday. A little fix in terminal by typing… gsettings set org.gnome.shell.extensions.dash-to-dock click-action 'minimize' ...got that 2nd dock click to minimize action working like a dream. And please, don’t tell me that elementary OS may not be for me, after I’ve been using it since it’s second version. Taking a valuable feature away and politely saying "like it or leave it" really doesn’t fly as easily as you might think it does! Your OS is the only OS that I throw a tiny bit of money too. It’s not much, but I definetly don’t expect to be told to move on over expressing honest feedback. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Cinnamon uses the Dash to Dock settings ? |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
@danirabbit It's absurd how you're forcing users not to use a feature they actually want. Not having a minimize button is one thing, but being unable to minimize from the dock is just unreasonable. This isn't even a new feature; it's something that works today, and you're simply choosing to remove it. Not being able to minimize is practically asking me to stop using elementaryOS. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
you can also just install and use Plank. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
It may help to outline one or more scenarios where minimizing a window is (currently) the best solution (as opposed to just pushing the window down the z-order, by focusing the window you do want). Then a specific issue could be raised and the design perhaps be tweaked to provide an equally easy/discoverable solution. I have not used minimize for ages - I just keep windows open and switch between them either with Alt+Tab or switch workspace or click on the dock icon. This is enough to work easily with 6 or more windows which is usually enough. Unused windows can be closed and restored as needed. I appreciate though that minimize is what many users are used to and some are reluctant to learn a different way of working. Also discoverability could be an issue. One thing I would like to see is a section of the dock (or wingpanel) devoted to workspaces (an icon per workspace) so they can be accessed immediately rather than via the MultiTasking icon. This would make workspaces more discoverable but there could be space issues. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
I’ve used elementary OS exclusively since the point 2 release, until version 7 was unstable on my newish desktop build... that has a Nvidia 3060 GPU in it. I also don’t want to hear an opinion on how bad Nvidia cards are, because my desktop PC works perfectly in the 22.04 versions of PopOS and Zorin, and my GPU helps feed my Plex Server addiction, when using Handbrake to quickly compress Blu-ray rips. I’m still running elementary OS 7 on my laptop by the way, and have never used any other OS on any laptop since the point 2 release of elementary. Many Ubuntu 22.04 based distros were problematic on my new desktop build, because of my GPU, so that issue wasn’t just an elementary OS 7 issue. I switched to POPOS on my dektop because that distro made it easy to get the same elementary OS workflow, with almost the same ecat app store, only better in my opinion. I can also boot into Ubuntu 24.04 off the second nvme drive in my desktop PC, and have elementary OS 8 installed on my third NVME. No issues so far with kernel updates with the new version of elementary OS and my GPU, which up until the Dock issue, was my only worry with the new release. With a simple Google search I can enable a second click of an icon in either the dock in Pop or Ubuntu, to minimize an open dock icon, just like every previious verion of elementary OS gave me back to the point 2 release. I have all the old ISO files, and can double check in a VM if I’m mistaken on that particular belief. Ubuntu 24.04 uses Wayland by default, and I have the desired feature there. Saying that this team HAS NOT taken a feature away, because you’re no longer using Plank and the new Dock application doesn’t offer the desired feature in the first place, is disingenuous at best, and simply gaslighting at worst. The new release hasn’t even been released to the general public, and after just a little bit of push back in this thread, the official and unofficial answers seem a bit cagey on the subject. From never having an intention of moving forward with this feature permanently, to blaming Wayland & Plank as a combination. If this new version of a dock can’t do what every other previous version of Plank did by default, going back to at least the point two release, that’s not a user issue and instead a short sighted design issue. The user base who has gotten their hands on elementary Os 8 has found the forum to tell all who will listen that they want this feature back, because it's a feature they use and desire, which means a solution needs to be offered, even if that solution is a rock solid tutorial on how to replace the new dock with another one. One that simply continues to work through each and every future upgrade to the new OS. Personally, I’ve had the chance to install elementary OS 8 on two systems for friends of mine, and one got an Ubuntu spin instead, and the other got elementary OS 7. I'm not inerested in teaching any of my people a feature that you want us to use, and instead will install the best distro for their use. It's not going to ever be version 8 of this distro. If a small sampling of dissatisfied users isn’t enough, what will the response be when people simply abandon an OS that those in this thread are fighting to maintain, as functioning in the way we have used every previous version. This distro is unique, and I would not be fighting for any other distro in the same way, and would instead simply move on to one that was more suitable. Elementary OS had a high degree of suitablility that I'm afraid the design team did not fully recognize. When someone else said the word shortsightedness, that person hit the bullseye from miles away. If you wanted to make the distro more intuitive, the second click of an open app in the dock to minimize feature would be returned, and then beefed up by changing the little blue dot that indicates an open app to a bright blue line, that older people can see more clearly. That addition would make it a hat trick with the two other visual accessibility options. But I’m just the average Joe user, so what could I possible know about how the distro is actually used. Sarcasm fully intended as a the proper response to being intentionally gaslit. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
please do not abuse psychiatric terms, especially not if you disagree with someone. I will not listen further to anything else from you. Ive spoken to Danielle with another member to see if there is a way. This is a no. I dont see what else we can do. Do an unofficial version ? Whats the point ? You can just install Plank. Or cairo-dock. Or nwg-dock. Or Gnome-Shell. This is all so childish. I dont want to contribute if its for this level of drama. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
So now it’s official, this feature is something that Danielle will not give back to us, if your “This is a no” sentence means that. But let’s not ignore the fact that you have already said… “It isnt taking it away. The dock is not plank. Plank is old, and does not work on wayland. This one is new and written from scratch” Your statement obfuscates the undeniable fact that from a user’s perceptive, this feature is being taken away from a user when they transition from version 7 to version 8. Two days ago you said to alxmagro… “you can also just install and use Plank”, and again said the same thing to me in your last reply Seeing that elementary OS 8 is now using Wayland, AND you’ve said that Plank does not work under Wayland… why do you keep saying to simply switch back to plank? Can a user easily switch to plank without causing harm to the install?, Will this cause system instability after future updates? If so, would you be so kind as to tell us how to manage that in a way that won’t cause future issues. In elementary OS… will I find Plank, cairo-dock, nwg-dock, or Gnome Shell in the app store? If I managed to get one of them installed, how would I know how t5o disable your new dock? You see where I’m going with all of this… don’t you? If it’s not clear, you’re putting a lot on the shoulders of an end user, while trying to convey that this burden is easy to accomplish. I take issue with that, but won’t label it due to the fact that it might offend you. Yesterday you also said “I think click on minimize wasn't the default ? It was more of something that was possible when eOS adopted plank then the work on the new one focused on default usage, as to where eOS wanted to go, so the rest was not redone by the core team”.\ Which again is either a uninformed misstatement, or purposeful obfuscation. I have the elementaryos0.1-jupiter-amd64.iso live booted right now as I type, and the second click to a dock icon to minimize any open application feature has been the default feature going back to 2011. Do you have access to that ISO to verify this information? Right now I’m looking at the first two apps, and both Midori and Postler minimize with a second click to their dock icons. I do appreciate your contributions to the project, but you cant take the tone you have taken with me, and not expect push back. I don’t want to know how to go under the hood to hack this distro, and instead want to simply continue using it in in the way that it has always worked, even if Danielle wants to remove this core feature while you pretend that it’s never been a core feature. I’ve stated multiple times what makes this distro perfect for older users. Not once have you thought to offer appreciation for my past elementary OS enthusiasm, and instead simply use obfuscation to distort things that I know to be true, and can easily prove as true. I’ll move on and find another distro, but this is a huge mistake for this elementary OS. The whole team may be stuck in a bubble, where the distro is being coded for people just like all of you, and not for people that have used it long term. I do with the distro luck, but I’m still hoping that once the distro is released, that enough people will chime in about this missing feature, that changes the current direction. Finally, if the team can offer a concise FAQ that allows this new Dock to be discarded in a way that anyone can follow, to then install a replacement for the old Plank that works under Wayland, You might keep me and my little group as users. I’ll be checking in with my 80ish year old neighbor that I setup with Ubuntu Cinnamon Edition for the 2nd time this weekend to see if he’s still doing good with his first Linux distro. What absolutely hurts the most besides this dock issue if not having the dyslexic settings switch that has meant the world to a few of my people, in any other distro. You don’t believe it, but the distro is now on the wrong track. At the risk of using another psychiatric term, this all seems too crazy to believe. This is my last attempt at getting a functional dock by asking for clear instructions on how to do that, if you can't help all of this like we're alla firs ttime Linux user, I'll officially give up on both this issue and the distro all together. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
STEPS TO USE PLANK ON eOS 8 (in theory, I don't have 8.0 ISO currently installed) Make sure to select X11 session during login. Plank is in the Ubuntu repos, so installing it is easy. So is removing the default dock. NOTE: plank will NOT work on Wayland, so doing this will render your Wayland session pretty much unusable. Open the Terminal and enter the following commands (AT YOUR OWN RISK THIS COULD BREAK YOUR INSTALL):
TaDa, no more new dock now plank. OTHER NOTES: There are better ways of doing this as well where you can create a small bash script to killall io.elementary.dock on startup and then launch plank. That way if you DO want to use the Wayland session you could still launch the new dock by entering io.elmentary.dock in a terminal. You could also rename the binary to say "io.elementary.doc" that way you wouldn't have to worry about killing it but could still launch it in Wayland using io.elementary.doc I use this method on 7.1 to remove wingpanel because I run a ulauncher/plank custom setup, works like a charm. EDIT: Since first discovering the no minimize I have tried to use Plank this way, and I have to say I have gotten used to this by adjusting workflow ever so slightly. I have a feeling the new dock will grow on me, but time will tell! |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
Sorry about my delay in responding. I'm not able to switch to an x11 session after elementary OS is already booted into a Wayland session by logging out, and I'm sure it's due to my ASUS Geforce 3060 video card in my Desktop computer. When i attempt to change to the classic option versus the secure option, the screen goes blank for 20 seconds and then comes back to the login screen. I'm only able to log back into the Wayland session. Wayland is the future of every OS, and if I'm going to continue to use elementary OS with version 8, i need an absolutely rock solid replacement dock solution. I've probably installed one version or another of elementary OS on about 20 computers or laptops of my friends and family over the last seven or eight years. I'm a tech nerd, but in essence, just another advanced Linux "user", who still needs clear instructions to replace this core festure through terminal commands. elementary OS up until this point, has been the best, most stable, and easiest OS for my friends and family to use, and another Dock that later causes issues is something that will force me to stop using elementary OS as the distro of choice that I support for my group. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
I have to say, this feels like a joke. There’s no 'innovation' here; these are features that have been present across operating systems for years. If users want to use multiple workspaces, that's fine—it’s not new, and practically every OS has this functionality already. But why limit the users? This is a massive waste of time. It’s like tilting at windmills while elementaryOS barely evolves. Each new version seems to just refine what was already working, and now they’re even removing features that currently work. Meanwhile, the OS still lacks decent email integration, for example. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
email integration ? What do you mean ? |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
They arent removing features. The dock is rewritten - Plank does not work on Wayland. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
If they rewrote it and didn’t keep the minimize functionality as an option, then they did remove it. I have nothing against those who want to use workspaces. This functionality has existed on every major OS for years, including Windows. But if I want to use my system the way I always have, why on earth should someone force me to use it in a way I don’t intend to? I feel like Danielle is playing at being disruptive over a feature that has existed for years. There’s nothing new or innovative here. The day they stop with this nonsense, maybe this OS will actually become something. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
I'm also +1 on restoring the IINM there is are keyboard shortcut(s) to minimise the active/foreground window and/or minimise ALL windows to make the desktop visible? I don't really bother trying to remember/use too many keyboard shortcuts because I keep switching between OSes and desktop environments which confuses me. Would be cool if someone proposes a PR (maybe I can try it) to update the Dock to simply trigger the same action of the keyboard shortcut to do the minimise instead of just beeping and doing nothing. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
oops nevermind - just saw the comment about design conflict and yes there's issues with multiple windows - my bad. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
"Design conflict" that has never been an issue for anyone and is something many people actively use. |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
|
To be honest, I'm finding this new "my way or the highway" attitude that has emerged with v8.0 to be exceedingly offputting. I've been a user for a while. I anxiously waited for v8.0, to the point of not installing anything else on the laptop I'm using now after a power event borked my EOSV8.0 RC install (to which I could get no response whatsover from the team). Now, after installing the final version, time after time I'm hit in the face with regression after regression and being told, "try it you'll like it better" Sorry, wrong answer. An amazingly tone-deaf wrong answer. I was a sponser. I cancelled that as this is no longer an effort I wish to contribute to. I've spun up a VirtualBox session on a desktop and am actively trying out a number of other distros. You had me Elementary, well and fully. But I guess that wasn't enough for you. I'll be around. I've got v7.1 installed on a desktop that I'm happy with. It was good time you and me. I learned a LOT about Linux because of EOS. A lot more than I wanted to frankly, but I had no choice. Agree with Thomas that perhaps it's time to change "The thoughtful, capable, and ethical replacement for Windows and macOS." to something a little less disengenuous. I took that statement to mean that EOS would be good to go for use immediately after install with no command line work. Well, that is far from the truth. Many of the inbuilt apps are frankly, less than useful. I guess looking back at it, it's more "we know better than you what is good". Do yourself a favor. Stop the development of the inbuilt apps. It's painfully obvious you don't have anywhere near the resources available to do justice to them. Figure out how to make popular apps (Thunderbird, Chrome, etc) look and feel the same as the rest of Pantheon. I've removed EVERY single inbult app from the machine I'm typing on. EVERY ONE. Being pretty does not equate to being useful. Cheers |
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
-
I've been playing with Elementary OS 8 RC and I'm loving it. The one thing I miss is the ability to minimize apps by clicking their dock icon. Are there plans to implement this feature before EOS8 release?
Since Elementary does not offer a minimize button on windows, using the dock became the natural way for me to minimize windows using the mouse. I know there is a shortcut to do from the keyboard or from a window menu but these require additional clicks and are less discoverable.
Thanks
Beta Was this translation helpful? Give feedback.
All reactions